The "something larger"? It's violence. As confirmed by the pro-Dotard blogger Minus FJ.
| -FJ: The next moves by the right won't be LARPers. They'll be by Lachesists... (1/16/2021 at 10:55 AM. WYM).
Dervish Sanders: Heil Dotard. He's the leader/figurehead of the White Nationalist/maga insurgency :( (1/16/2021 at 9:58 AM. PTL). Thersites: If only... (1/17/2021 at 4:48 AM. PTL). |
The frowny face at the end of my comment links to an article by Malcolm Nance that predicts a "political insurgency that will have a paramilitary insurgent element". aka we may see a large increase in White Supremacist terrorism as a result of Joe Biden legitimately defeating Dotard in the 2020 election.
The response to this prediction of a violent insurgency by the Minus sockpuppet (Thersites)? "If only" he writes. He wants there to be violence.
Because Joe Biden "stole" the election. Dotard's loss certainly couldn't be explained by the fact that he ignored the pandemic for months before launching a totally incompetent response. The result being close to 400k deaths, recession, and unprecidented government spending (this from the candidate who promised to pay off ALL of the government's debt).
Joe Biden won and Joe Biden WILL be president. Despite Magamorons quadrupling down on dishonesty and hypocrisy. And threatening (more) violence because their White Supremacist predisent lost. Guess what? The US doesn't negotiate with terrorists. We arrest or kill them.
No justice, no peace. :)
ReplyDeleteIts not a call for violence, its' a serious prediction and an appeal for justice denied. Democrats to take the calls to investigate election fraud seriously? Never happen. So... no justice no peace. I'm not calling for violence. I'm stating a truism. The hubris of the leaders of the DNC are the ones ensuring that violence will be unavoidable.
DeleteThe real kicker is, people without faith in the election system in the future aren't going to go to the ballot box for future changes. So, do nothing to investigate or fix it at your own peril... because change won't be coming through the ballot box. It'll come as it always has.
Deleteps - Hows censoring "election fraud" references working out for y'all?
DeleteNow, which do I want, violence, or an investigation? Because if I wanted the former, why would I offer the latter as a means of avoiding violence?
DeleteNow, Don't say you weren't warned.
DeletePeople are convinced that Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster exist too. Although less money is spent investigating them then voter fraud. Which, as I've already pointed out HAS been investigated. A lot. And the findings are always that it is statistically insignificant. Dotard investigated it. It is impossible to get justice for injustices that are imaginary.
DeleteYouTube censors Bigfoot videos? Who knew?
DeleteThe comment you are responding to doesn't mention YouTube. In any case, I just looked at your blog and see a bunch of YouTube videos that are of the sort (voter fraud delusions) you say are being censored. How is this possible? They are flagged, so it's not as if they escaped YouTube's attention.
DeleteTheir inefficiency in flagging and deleting all copies isn't my problem.
DeletePeople are self-radicalizing reading and watching trumper disinformation online. The social media companies have finally woken up to the fact that they are enabling this. Better late then never? Bigfoot videos don't radicalize people to take up arms against their own government.
DeleteFacebook and Twitter should have blocked the Steele dossier and Mueller Report/ Putin's puppet charges? How could they have been so derelict in their duties?
DeleteLong live "The Resistance"!
Me, I'm just part of "Occupy Biden's Brain".
No, they're only blocking misinformation. Or flagging it. So why would they block the Steele dossier or the Muller report? Dotard is/was Putin's puppet.
DeleteThere wasn't any misinformation in it? Where are the bedwetting Moscow hookers then?
DeleteHow would I know? Paid off, threatened or murdered.
DeleteQuote: The IG includes another claim... sources based in St. Petersburg reported that Trump has paid bribes and engaged in sexual activities in St. Petersburg, including participating in sex parties, but that witnesses had been "silenced"... bribed or coerced to disappear.
ps - Nice "out of context" editting. Did you learn decontextualization techniques in college?. You should work for the NY Times... or help Mueller write his next Russia Russiaa report.
ReplyDeleteNothing was out of context. You wrote "if only" in response to my concerns about an increase in rightwing terrorism due to your inability to accept the results of the election.
DeleteIf only Trump WERE in charge... he could control it. But he's not, and now no one will.
DeleteYou say you don't want violence because all we have to do to avoid it is "admit" there was widespread voter fraud and Dotard won... but there wasn't and he didn't.
DeleteWe won't give in to terrorist demands. And I stand by my conclusion. You think violence is acceptable -- in response to the imaginary injustices you say have been inflicted upon you and your White Supremacist ilk.
Dotard should not just be impeached, convicted in the Senate and prevented from running for public office again, he should be criminally charged, convicted and imprisoned for inciting violence.
lol! You'd have to admit the possibility and do an honest/credible investigation. But you won't even grant due process. Sad.
DeleteThe investigations have been done many many times. The GA state reps Dotard tried to intimidate into falsifying the election results set him straight. Everything he told them to look at had already been looked at. And there was no fraud on the level he believes. These people are total Dotard toadies, btw. If they could have given Dotard the win they absolutely would have. But, if you're going to cheat, it can't be THAT obvious. "We recalculated" wouldn't work.
DeleteWhat's sad is your illiteracy. I keep saying the same thing over and over (re voter fraud being extensively investigated) but you keep incorrectly claiming it hasn't anyway.
You arrested Ruby Freeman? Who knew? Did you find out who paid her $100/hr. fee?
DeleteWhy should someone guilty of no crime be arrested? Dotard lost -- were're stepping away from authoritarianism (a governmental system under which an innocent person could be arrested for political reasons).
Deletewere're stepping away from authoritarianism (a governmental system under which an innocent person could be arrested for political reasons
Delete...like impeachment? Who knew? Did the DNC turn over a new leaf? BWAH!
Inciting violence is an impeachable offense. As well as a jailable one. Dotard should be impeached, then face a criminal trial. Not for political reasons, but for rule of law reasons.
DeleteRoL.... LoL!
DeleteYou said the rulers are above the law... but tomorrow Dotard won't be a ruler any longer. It is almost time for Dotard to pay for his crimes... like any ordinary person subject to US laws.
DeleteLike Bill Clinton did after his conviction. lol!
DeleteConviction for what?
DeleteInteresting isn't it, the conservative argument. Either capitulate to our demands, or we will be violent.
ReplyDeleteThat's terrorism.
Since when do we negotiate with terrorists. President Reagan stated long ago the US should not, and will never do that.
Unless and until the right agrees to publicly denounce violence and the threat of more violence here in the US, they remain an insurrectionist mob, trying to sway public opinion and discourse at the end of a blade, or a barrel.
Get real folks...
You never saw this type of behavior from folks who were not allowed to vote because they were not viewed as citizens. Not at all.
Maybe -FJ can tell me why the conservatives, the right, the wingnuts, or whatever they are called, have embraced violence and why their enablers refuse, or are unable to be critical of this reality.
FJ is a terrorist. As is Dotard donnie himself and all his blind, deaf, and dumb cultists.
ReplyDeleteSo much for caritas. :)
ReplyDeleteGive in to our demands to accept your imaginary "proof" of voter fraud or else there will be violence... not doing so doesn't because of a lack of love. It's due to a lack of us wanting to share your delusion.
DeleteWe do want universal health care... including mental health care. That's real caritas.
China Joe and Kamal Toe will certainly "give it to you." Of course, you could get it in Cuba, Venezuela, or even China... provided you have enough "social credits".
Deletebtw - Dr. Rochelle Walensky is claiming that their will be 500,000 Covid deaths by end of February. Since Covid-care has been both free and universal, how's all that 'caritas' working out for you?
DeleteThink she'll take responsibility for any of those deaths? Think she'll take responsiblity for the Fall of 2001 wave? But why throw any new people under the bus when Trump's already there.
A prediction. Trump will serve as scapegoat throughout 2021-4. The Deep State will once again be held "blameless"... It kinda makes you wonder if the DNC could ever survive without a scapegoat to blame it's own incompetence upon.
Delete:)
DeleteBlaming the incompetent party that is responsible isn't "scapegoating".
DeleteTrump caused Covid? Who knew?
DeleteDid he make the virus on his WH CRISPR?
DeleteI was responding to your bullshit claim concerning the DNC scapegoating Dotard for their incompetence. You were saying the DNC caused covid? Previously you indicated you might believe a Chinese scientist created it. Are your delusions telling you the DNC paid China to release the virus?
DeleteChina Joe simply obeys his masters...
DeleteThere is no such person as "China Joe". Or there might be, but he isn't Joe Biden. Joe Biden's masters (his employers) are the American people. A fact Dotard never understood.
DeleteThey don't pay him nearly as much as what gets funneled into his "equity" accounts from China under his brother and son.
DeleteWhy did China funnel $26 million to Dotard right after he was sworn in? What did China Dotard do for his masters in return for this large amount of cash??
DeleteHmmmm...$25m.... $1b... $25m.... $1b... Hard assetts/real estate... bags of nothing but influence... which ones sounds shadier?
DeleteYou're referring to the 1.5 billion Hunter Biden didn't get? Because that was the entire value of the fund and because (as per Hunter Biden's lawyer) his client "has not received any return of capital or compensation on account of his investment or his position on the board of directors". Then there is also the fact that "experts said that neither of the Bidens appears to have done anything illegal" :P
DeleteHe's got no equity? Who knew?
DeleteThe linked to article says it's 420k. A lot less than 1.5 billion. Also significantly less than the 26 million Dotard received from China.
DeleteHunter didn't get a billion from China? It disappeared? Wow, I don't think that the IRS is going to believe that story...
DeleteThat is the total value of the fund. It didn't disappear, the BULK of the 1.5 billion belongs to the fund investors.
Delete...until the day that the Administrators decide where to commit funds or deduct fees.
DeleteThersites, Soon to be Former President Trump will indeed serve as a scapegoat and animate a large section of the GOP for years to come. As for the survival of the DNC and the blame game, how is any party different?
ReplyDeletePolitical thought in the last decades has left ideas behind and simply runs on "we're not them." There are no animating philosophies, beliefs, creeds, nothing. Simply win. And then we'll do a few things you like while demonizing the losers.
DJT did not cause this, but he certainly exacerbated it.
And yes, we will soon reach 500,000 deaths from Covid. Perhaps if our leaders had not decided to politicize the virus, sought consensus on mitigation and relief strategies and worked together, while still facing a huge number, it might not be anywhere near as large as it soon will be.
Donald Trump is reviled for his animating philosophy...that local control beats global or national control eight days a week. That the globalist and deep-state nationalists seek now to erase his memory and prevent its future resurgence comes as a surprise to no one. The only surprise lies in the unconstitutional and liberally unethical lengths they will go to ensure it and make themselves feel "safe".
DeleteDotard's animating philosophies are greed and narcissism. He is reviled for his evil White Supremacy, stupidity and incompetence.
Deletelol! He's reviled because he's dangerous to Unipartarians like you.
Delete;p
DeleteI'm a Progressive Democrat.
DeleteWhat are you "progressing" other than communism?
DeleteThat Progressivism and Communism are the same thing is your delusion.
DeleteCommunism is the End, Progressivism/Socialism is the road.
DeleteIt isn't.
DeleteAcheronta Movebo!
DeleteFascism is the end, trumper republicanism is the road.
DeleteMeden agan!
DeleteExcept (according to you) if you're a Progressive Democrat. Or a moderate Democrat. Or a Conservative Democrat.
Delete...unicorns and rainbows. The last Scoop Jackson Democrat became a Neocon Reagan Republican in 1980.
DeleteUnicorns = moderate or liberal republican.
DeleteAnd I thought Turtleman was your man of the hour...
DeleteHe denied Barack Obama his supreme court pick and then hypocritically pushed through the horrible Amy. So... NO. He used Dotard to load up the judiciary with Conservative judges. Now that Dotard is of no use to him he wants him gone (not a leader of the republican party able to run for office again).
DeleteNot that I think Dotard would run again. I have no idea. But I am sure he would at least pretend he was going to run. So he could keep the donations from gullible rubes flowing.
Do you actually know any Trump admirers who trust the turtle?
DeleteOf course not. Do you actually know of any Democrats who trust the turtle?
DeleteWhich reveals the unbridled hypocrisy of the Democrat media...
DeleteIt doesn't.
DeleteThen why praise the turtle?
DeleteDo they praise clocks for being right twice a day?
DeleteI've never praised McConnell. He is terrible.
DeleteI notice none of the right leaning folks here have said violence is wrong as a mode of protest.
ReplyDeletePlenty of lefties, including Joe Biden, have consistently denounced violence connected to BLM, the George Floyd rallies and more.
Why do GOP elected officials and supporters parse their words so much when asked to denounce violence as a form of protest?
Why do statements like "many fine people" when speaking of Nazi's and "We love you, your very special" when speaking about people killing federal agents and desecrating the capitol, keep happening?
Why is it so hard to just condemn those actions and the people who commit them with the same ferocity used to condemn someone who kneels during the National Anthem?
Why would I say that? Have you read Slavoj Zizek's Violence? And just where do you suppose the origins of law lie? Fantasy?
DeleteAs Zizek states, sometimes the most violent action can lie in "doing nothing" (ie-to resolves the fears that the democratc system isn't working). So which violence do you want me to condemn. The violence in the street? Or the violence inherent in the system?
Delete...that must deploy 15,ooo troops to "safeguard" a "perfectly legitimate" election?
DeleteI don't live in your hypernormality where pols just unilaterally condemn BLM protests AND simultaneously defund the violent enforcement elements of the police force.... serving to both support AND undermine their own positions for the sake of virtue signaling their complete lack of morality.
DeleteSTFU Thersites. Your conspiratorial idiocy has grown exceedingly verbose and definitely as boring as hell.
Deletelol!
DeleteMinus AGAIN confirms that he supports violence as a response to his candidate losing. I was going to say the results of a fair election, but it wasn't fair. But all the cheating was on behalf of Dotard. He gloated when I brought up the cheating Dotard did by having Dejoy delay mail-in ballots. If you want to see someone with a complete lack of morals, you just need to look in the mirror, Minus.
Delete...after Trump leaves, Democrats quickly find a new scapegoat to hate.
DeleteDorard donnie comsumes ALL my hate until the day the motherfucker deservingly DIES, thus ending his miserable fucking existence. A "man" who will be responsible for hundred of thousands of deaths, sedition and insurection deserves on fucking miserable end to his totally USELESS existance.
DeleteSatan's minion deserves ZERO caritas.
DeleteAll satan like trumpers deserve ZERO catitas. PERIOD.
DeleteIn fact they deserves NOTHING contempt, disdain, suspicion and distrust, disrespect, and the right to be hated. Just like t gucking Rump would have it. Fuck tRump and his goddamn trumpism.
Trmpers are Satanists.... LOL!
DeleteFuck you... LOL not. Serious as a heart attack ir a hurricane.
DeleteThe chattering class offers up a red herring. Writers as varied as Manfed Brauch and Jacques Ellul have both written provocative books on violence as it relates to how people interpret and use scripture for their own goals.
DeleteSo, existentially, yes, many ppl are guilty of violence of different types.
But as we speak of the Trump Admin, and the insurrection of Jan 6, everyone not willfully ignorant, or obtuse, knows of what we speak. 5 ppl lost their lives that day, including a federal agent. Clearly, for the families of those ppl, the violence of that day has forever taken from them all, a parent, father, perhaps mother, and cherished relative.
But the supporters of day choose to look for some level of whataboutism, somehow looking to justify that violence with the essentially "any means necessary" defense.
I saw an entire village lit up in southern Mexico because the ruling class essentially wanted to return to the "old, safe, secure and known" ways of dealing with issues. That meant women could vote, since it was guaranteed in the Constitution, but that same document never bothered to codify a requirement to actually count a woman's vote. Then once a woman was close to election, they struck. Killing her brother, blinding her mom, nearly taking her life, burning out the businesses of people who opposed them and setting fires to all of their cars.
Was that violence justified because the perpetrators felt their "rights" were being stolen?
Of course not.
The failure of anyone to publicly condemn the recent violence at the Capitol of the US, renders their future voice irrelevant to our country.
Years ago, and even now, the right, even the extreme right, had a saying they employed to put the left in its place... "if you don't like the law, change the law."
For years, leaders in the Civil Rights movement heard that and pushed back against their members, Malcolm X among them, who advocated for real violence, essentially, "any means necessary."
The left has been incredibly consistent over the years in relationship to using violence in response to unjust federal action. It is simply wrong.
Sadly, the right, and those like -FJ and his coterie of sock puppets, refuse to agreee and as such, have no place in a civilized society.
lol! Slavoj Zizek is on the Right? Who knew?
DeleteEcclesiastes 3. You should read it.
DeleteDotard ran as a republican. If you support Dotard you are "on the right". Or an idiot.
DeleteNever-Trumpers are on the Left? Who knew?
DeleteHuh? I said if you support Dotard you're on the right. I didn't say if you don't support Dotard you're on the Left.
DeleteAll those former Democrat white union workers are on the Right? Who knew? And all those black crossover voters in 2020 were Goldwater Conservatives? Amazing!
DeleteYes. That is the side they chose. Even though they were fooled by Dotard's lies. When they voted for Dotard they (unknowingly) voted for the right (tax cuts for the wealthy, screw the poor and middle class, laugh at the saps you tricked into voting for you). Still, that was their decision.
DeleteIf only they were smart like the Black voters...
DeleteIf only...
DeleteJoe and your other alter egos... regarding Slavoj, you can probably imagine by my affinity for someone like Ellul, that I generally do not favor fanboys of German theologians or philosophers.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, yes, labels can be difficult to use these days with precision. Mostly because there are always some, you seem to be in the crowd, who choose not to deal within the "current" lexicon of group titles and understanding.
But that matters not, really. What matters is whether someone believes violence is a suitable way to engage society, anger at government or even disgust with their neighbor. I've seen nothing related to how "Trumpists" have been treated that seems to justify that.
In my opinion, and others can of course disagree, there is nothing, and as such, those who continue to promote violence as a remedy to their anger are wrong. Period. And the people who are quiet at this time, as deadly violence happens, are guilty enablers.
So the Faithful should just shut up and "follow in the ways" of Caesar. Good to know. Any idea when we're going to inherit some earth that's not six feet underground?
Delete...and so much for social contracts. Jsut take what Caesar offers. No soup for you!
DeleteI've seen nothing related to how "Trumpists" have been treated that seems to justify that.
Deletebtw -You should pray to Asclepius. He's promised, like the DNC, to cure Plutus' blindness.
I enjoy the occasional blabberings of rightwing trumpista knuckle draggers. I really realy do. Because they remind me of the insanity that dwells between their ears.
DeleteI've never enjoyed the ramblings of Objectivists. They seem to want to channel Rand, but have no sense of humour whatsoever.
Delete...and so much for social contracts. Just take what Caesar offers. No soup for you!
DeleteWe live in a democracy. Our social contract doesn't say you get the leadership you want or the contract is broken. It says you get to vote. Idiot. Did the Left go to the absurd when Dotard won and claim the social contract was broken and they had no choice but to resort to violence?
Our social contract says that my vote will be counted (correctly/fairly). :P
DeleteRight. Your vote most likely was counted correctly and fairly. Because you're White. For Black people the contract says their vote might be counted. At least according to republican disenfranchisers.
DeleteRuby Freeman's extra 150,000 votes were well deserved, I'm sure....
DeleteHey dipshit Thersites, you vote was counted. Fairly and accurately. Once. Like 99.93% of ALL votes. IOW. bobo, ya got absolutely mo f'ing complaint.PERIOD.
DeleteSo, stop yer whining ya GD crybaby.
There were no extra 150k votes. That video has been debunked. Why Ruby Freeman has not (and never will be) arrested. She should sue Rudy Giuliani. He saw the whole video and so knows he lied and slandered her.
Deletelol! Debunked by the supervisor paying her $100 an hour to run the phoney ballots? That's quite a good alibi. I'm convinced....
DeleteDebunked by watching the entire video. Instead of clips. Rudy knows he lied when he presented the clips as "proof".
DeleteHer confessions aren't made continuously throughout the video? Who knew?
DeleteI was talking about the "fradulent ballots in suitcases" video. The "confession" video wasn't her. It was fake.
DeleteSnopes: After the suitcase-of-fraud claims were dismissed by election officials, social media users started sharing a "confession" that Freeman supposedly posted to her Instagram account. This Instagram account, however, does not actually belong to Freeman. Shortly after this "confession" went viral, the @RubyFreeman_Georgia Instagram account (which was created on the same day this message was posted), started sharing content that mocked those who fell for its ruse.
lol! Wrong confession. I'm talking about what the security tape overheard.
Delete-FJ asked... "So the Faithful should just shut up and "follow in the ways" of Caesar."
ReplyDeleteLet me give you two answers...
First... from a theological standpoint. Yes. And we need to look no further than Jesus' life. He never acknowledged the rights of the state to control or have power over him. He just let the state do what they wanted, what they had to do. He never advocated for violence or an overthrow of the government. It's essentially what Ellul argued in "Anarchy and Christianity." I would probably add Socrates to this viewpoint too, willingly choosing death to a corrupt state rather than a certain escape.
There's a lot to be learned from two lives.
And then, from a political standpoint... another Yes. Just as MLK and Civil Rights leaders did in the 50's and 60's. They did not shut up, but took the beatings, firehoses, dog attacks and more. And that legitimized the movement.
I would also argue, at least from a political standpoint, that people who would not have advocated for the rights of black people in the 60's and indeed to this day see no reason to join causes with ppl who have actually been denied the right to vote and daily face real discrimination, have no credibility in the "our rights are being violated" discussion.
That group has never advocated for others treated even worse, so the question is why now?
Could the answer be... they now fear that the browning of Amrtica will somehow diminish what they have always believed was ther birthright .. that they, by virtue of their whiteness are superior to people of color and therefore are entitled to special privilege.
DeleteSocrates chose death to protect a corrupt State? You don't know much about Socrates' motives.
DeleteAs for your arguments in favour of "social justice", I'm of the opinion that performing injustices in the present to atone for injustices of the past can't be a very good solution. I say that to atone you need to start providing justice to all. Give to each his due. Individualized justice, not class action settlements made to save Court costs. Isn't THAT what justice really means?
ps- Allow yourself to be crucified if you like. Me, I'm going to fight back. :)
Delete....because. as I keep having to repeaat, I'm no Christian. :)
DeleteWhen the cattle car to Auswitz comes, feel free to climb aboard.
Delete...as for me, I won't be believing your "cover stories about work setting me free.
Delete...but I'm sure that its just the cost and "inefficiency" of all that justice that individualized justice requires (in lieu of the socialized variety) that upsets you " progressives" so much.
DeleteSuck it up.
Well -FJ, there's a lot there. First, where did I say Socrates chose death to "protect" a corrupt state? His death, like Jesus, was carried out by the state, but neither man was supportive of the state.
Delete"Allow" myself to be crucified? I've already done that, already gave up "my" life when I set my hopes and dreams aside to live my life as a follower of Jesus. And literally everyday I work south of the border, I know those days can be my last, that I may never return. As the Apostle said, for him, and for me, to live is Christ, to die is gain. I admit, it's not for everyone, but for those who claim the mantle of Christianity, our former president included, this is standard stuff.
As for Weber and his protestant "work ethic" I'm glad you're not a fan. We need more ppl who eschew capitalism for a better way, a new "cover story."
Socrates' wasn't supportive of the State? That's not what the Crito/Apology/Critias dialogues indicate. What Socrates opposed was "injustice" and lived by the singular principle that it was better to suffer an injustice than commit one. And "escape" would have been an injustice in the eyes of the State's greatest "gadfly".
DeleteBut it would seem that your 'social justice' State more than willing to commit billions and trillions of injustices. It's not a "State" that even Socrates would have felt allegiance to. He would have proposed and chosen exile over death as sentence for his "crimes" of corrupting the youth of Athens.
And I'm glad that you've found meaning in dedicating your life to serving the lives of others. But eschewing bourgeois capitalism in favour of corporate global capitalism is a bit of a funny way of showing it.
Socrates last words before receiving sentence (Plato, "Apology")
DeletePerhaps you may think that I am braving you in saying this, as in what I said before about the tears and prayers. But that is not the case. I speak rather because I am convinced that I never intentionally wronged anyone, although I cannot convince you of that - for we have had a short conversation only; but if there were a law at Athens, such as there is in other cities, that a capital cause should not be decided in one day, then I believe that I should have convinced you; but now the time is too short. I cannot in a moment refute great slanders; and, as I am convinced that I never wronged another, I will assuredly not wrong myself. I will not say of myself that I deserve any evil, or propose any penalty. Why should I? Because I am afraid of the penalty of death which Meletus proposes? When I do not know whether death is a good or an evil, why should I propose a penalty which would certainly be an evil? Shall I say imprisonment? And why should I live in prison, and be the slave of the magistrates of the year - of the Eleven? Or shall the penalty be a fine, and imprisonment until the fine is paid? There is the same objection. I should have to lie in prison, for money I have none, and I cannot pay. And if I say exile (and this may possibly be the penalty which you will affix), I must indeed be blinded by the love of life if I were to consider that when you, who are my own citizens, cannot endure my discourses and words, and have found them so grievous and odious that you would fain have done with them, others are likely to endure me. No, indeed, men of Athens, that is not very likely. And what a life should I lead, at my age, wandering from city to city, living in ever-changing exile, and always being driven out! For I am quite sure that into whatever place I go, as here so also there, the young men will come to me; and if I drive them away, their elders will drive me out at their desire: and if I let them come, their fathers and friends will drive me out for their sakes.
Someone will say: Yes, Socrates, but cannot you hold your tongue, and then you may go into a foreign city, and no one will interfere with you? Now I have great difficulty in making you understand my answer to this. For if I tell you that this would be a disobedience to a divine command, and therefore that I cannot hold my tongue, you will not believe that I am serious; and if I say again that the greatest good of man is daily to converse about virtue, and all that concerning which you hear me examining myself and others, and that the life which is unexamined is not worth living - that you are still less likely to believe. And yet what I say is true, although a thing of which it is hard for me to persuade you. Moreover, I am not accustomed to think that I deserve any punishment. Had I money I might have proposed to give you what I had, and have been none the worse. But you see that I have none, and can only ask you to proportion the fine to my means. However, I think that I could afford a minae, and therefore I propose that penalty; Plato, Crito, Critobulus, and Apollodorus, my friends here, bid me say thirty minae, and they will be the sureties. Well then, say thirty minae, let that be the penalty; for that they will be ample security to you.
...but then again, I do see why you might. Corporate sponsors are much easier to acquire than the sponsorship of large groups of individual donors whom you must convince of your cause.
Deleteps- I remember when Socrates served his deme's year in government, and was reprimanded for his refusal to try the Athenian Admirals as a group... eschewing "collective" justice.
DeletePlato, "Apology"
DeleteI can give you as proofs of this, not words only, but deeds, which you value more than words. Let me tell you a passage of my own life, which will prove to you that I should never have yielded to injustice from any fear of death, and that if I had not yielded I should have died at once. I will tell you a story - tasteless, perhaps, and commonplace, but nevertheless true. The only office of state which I ever held, O men of Athens, was that of senator; the tribe Antiochis, which is my tribe, had the presidency at the trial of the generals who had not taken up the bodies of the slain after the battle of Arginusae; and you proposed to try them all together, which was illegal, as you all thought afterwards; but at the time I was the only one of the Prytanes who was opposed to the illegality, and I gave my vote against you; and when the orators threatened to impeach and arrest me, and have me taken away, and you called and shouted, I made up my mind that I would run the risk, having law and justice with me, rather than take part in your injustice because I feared imprisonment and death. This happened in the days of the democracy. But when the oligarchy of the Thirty was in power, they sent for me and four others into the rotunda, and bade us bring Leon the Salaminian from Salamis, as they wanted to execute him. This was a specimen of the sort of commands which they were always giving with the view of implicating as many as possible in their crimes; and then I showed, not in words only, but in deed, that, if I may be allowed to use such an expression, I cared not a straw for death, and that my only fear was the fear of doing an unrighteous or unholy thing. For the strong arm of that oppressive power did not frighten me into doing wrong; and when we came out of the rotunda the other four went to Salamis and fetched Leon, but I went quietly home. For which I might have lost my life, had not the power of the Thirty shortly afterwards come to an end. And to this many will witness.
Even though he states it explicitly, it wasn't "really" because it was "illegal" to try the Admirals as a group. It's because it would have been "unjust" in smearing the actions of one, with the actions of others... not giving "each" his "due".
Deleteps - You might enjoy Kant's "categorical imperative" as well. That it never morally right to use another human being as a "means to an end" rather than "an end unto himself".
Delete...makes you wonder if "ballot stuffing" also applies...
DeleteJust a reminder: Minus FJ has been WRONG ABOUT EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING!
ReplyDeleteDamn straight THAT!
Delete...at least Dervy's strawmem of him have been...
DeleteAnd sock puppet JC speaks out and further embarrasses itself.
ReplyDelete